Over the past three years, Max Winkler has become near-synonymous with the expanding Ryan Murphy TV portfolio. The indie filmmaker and TV director has helmed episodes of six different Murphy productions during this brief period, most recently tackling the bulk of FX’s Grotesquerie and a pivotal episode of Monsters: The Lyle And Erik Menendez Story for Netflix.
Winkler is already at work on their next collaboration. He’ll serve as director and executive producer on the yet-to-be-titled third installment of the Monster franchise, which turns its focus to 1950s serial killer Ed Gein. The project isn’t just a reunion for Winkler, Murphy and co-creator Ian Brennan; Winkler was instrumental in bringing on another past associate: the series’ lead. Charlie Hunnam, who previously starred in Winkler’s 2019 boxing drama Jungleland, is playing Gein. And Winkler is already quite bullish on how it’s coming together.
“I’ve made enough movies that nobody’s seen to tell you how good it feels to get to a reaction in real time,” he says, “and if we do our jobs, people will watch this.”
TV is hardly a novelty for Winkler. In between releasing a drumbeat of independent features, the 41-year-old filmmaker stepped in to direct such series as New Girl, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Brooklyn Nine Nine and Minx. But tackling five episodes of the highly stylized Grotesquerie arguably gave the Winkler his most creative liberty in the medium to date — even filming 15 minutes of one episode in one shot.
During a recent break from production, Winkler, the son of Hollywood royalty Henry Winkler, spoke about his recent choices, the pains of independent filmmaking today and what he and his cohorts have planned for the next installment of Monster.
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Since you’re working on it right now, I should probably ask you how Ed Gein become the subject of the next season of Monster.
When Ryan first told Charlie and I about it, he said that everything stems for this guy. He was the first serial killer, he kind of helped coin the term. He evoked a very quiet character study about this guy, and Charlie and I were immediately into it. I’m really grateful to be throwing myself into this with Charlie, who is one of my favorite actors.
This is a huge departure for the franchise, both in terms of the time period and the public awareness of the subject.
There’s this William Wyler movie, The Best Years of Our Lives, that really shows the shellshocked experience of what it felt like to be a human being after the atomic bomb was dropped. Everything looked great on the outside. The ads for vacuum cleaners or bologna were all bright and shiny, but there was a real mental health crisis. People didn’t know how to talk about it or diagnose it. What I liked about what Ryan did with the Menendez Brothers was the question he posed to the audience. The first one was just obvious. Jeffrey Dahmer is the monster. With the Menendez Brothers, it took a Rashomon perspective. Is the monster the kids? Is it privilege? Is it José Menendez? Is it Kitty? So I will say that this one further turns the perspective into more of that exercise, asking who the real monsters are. And it’s going to look different, just in the nature of the lighting. It’s 1950s rural Wisconsin with no electricity.
Five or six years ago, it was getting very common for one director to tackle every episode of a miniseries. We’re seeing less and less of that. Are you directing all of these?
No, and I don’t know how they do it. I’ve never been able to do it. Even with Grotesquerie, I did five of the 10. I don’t know how people do it and prep.
I spoke with Gus Van Sant earlier this year, and he mentioned really wanting to direct all of Feud. Ultimately, it was too demanding, so you and Jennifer Lynch stepped in to direct two of the episodes.
Gus is one of my favorite directors of all time, so I would just go and hang out on the set when Gus was directing. I felt like I’d won some kind of competition. During my episode, which was this kind of fever dream My Dinner with Andre situation between James Baldwin and Truman Capote, I was just very nervous. I was worried I’d be ripping off Gus, because I normally rip him off as much as I can. He’s a genius.
You’ve been marinating in a lot of dark material lately. How are you holding up?
It does not affect me. I am not method directing. (Laughs)
Directing the first episode of Grotesquerie, you were obviously very involved in establishing the aesthetic of the show. But you also directed the episodes where, in the interest of not spoiling anything, the narrative and the visuals shift. It afforded an opportunity to tweak, if not reset, the look. How’d you approach that?
Subtly. None of us wanted people to fall in love with the look of a show for the first seven episodes and then all of a sudden have that be completely different. It felt too risky to me. The changes in look, camera movements and lighting were very subtle in the interest of not alienating anybody who was really enjoying that part of the journey. But we’d approached that story in a way that set up all of these little breadcrumbs that you can no go back and see. Ryan had a clear vision for the whole season, and episode seven, from very early on. So we were able to plan all of that. And our inspiration for the look was somewhere between David Lynch and Chinatown. That is to say: very, very fucked up.
Going back to Monsters, what do you think of all these developments in the Menendez brothers’ case? There’s a scenario in which their sentences could be commuted within a few months of this show airing.
It’s incredible, and I think it’s because of the show. The American criminal system is deeply, deeply flawed, and this is a testament to Ryan’s impact on culture. No matter what anyone’s issues with the show might be, this is absolutely wild. Obviously, there were movements to [get them out of jail], but I’m sure what’s happening now is also directly related to the awareness this show brought. And I think 30-plus years is enough time to pay for mistakes you made when you’re young.
You mention the influence of Ryan Murphy. What’s the appeal to joining that repertory theatre, outside of the material and the steady work?
It’s really nice to make things that become a part of culture. I didn’t get that with any of the movies I’ve made. And it’s real hard for me to spend years on these things and then not be able to handle the release or who sees it. There’s something incredibly satisfying about taking the same time and care in making something and then knowing you’ll get to talk about it with people in real time — and not bang your head against a wall with a marketing department over a trailer or whatever.
Any particularly frustrating examples of that?
The best thing I think I ever did was a movie I made with Charlie Hunnam, [Jungleland]. Nobody saw it, and it crushed me. It made me want to retire. It came out in the theaters that first year of COVID and it was just, like, “fuck.” There’s a whole generation of movies that were lost because of that. So, the fact that Charlie and I get to come back and do this with Ryan and the team is very satisfying for me. Because I know that whatever we do — whether it’s good or not, that’s not my place to say — that I know people will see it.
We’re approaching the end of a year where the vibes have been pretty grim in Hollywood. The problems in TV seem especially clear: buyers aren’t spending. What do you see as the biggest challenge to getting a movie made right now?
The biggest challenge in getting an independent film is that financiers won’t finance a movie without cast. And agents, I’ve found, won’t really read scripts unless there’s financing attached. They don’t want to go out on a limb for their actor without a sure thing. It’s become a “chicken or the egg” situation, and it’s impossible. An act of God needs to occur to get an independent movie made. No one’s reading scripts. So, unless you have a preexisting relationship for an actor, I find it very hard to make a movie. International financing is another thing. You end up getting forced to cast people that aren’t necessarily right. That’s not fair to the people you’re casting or to the people you’re not casting. All of a sudden the movie doesn’t feel the way the filmmakers intended it to. It’s become this really complicated rat race that kind of makes you lose your mind.
I hate grilling people on the status of announced projects, but I loved Katy Vine’s Texas Monthly piece about the fruitcake embezzlement scandal. You are set to direct the adaptation, Jennifer Garner and Paul Walter Hauser are attached. Is that movie going to happen?I hope so. It’s just a house of cards. We’ll have this tiny window that works for everybody. Then, something shifts and somebody has to make a choice that makes total sense for their career, and everything falls apart again. It’s madness. To get an independent movie made today requires producers who truly live for this shit, just relentless people that are unwilling to take “no” for an answer. And you hear “no” so much.
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