RZA Still Speaks in Rhymes

Hip-hop has changed a lot since RZA formed the Wu-Tang Clan in 1992, catapulting rap music into a new era and rejuvenating New York City in the process. But despite the new iterations of hip-hop and the looming threat of artificial intelligence infringing on the art form, RZA still believes in the creative spirit of an MC.

“[AI] doesn't concern me because of the spontaneous combustion of the mind,” RZA tells Complex, speaking in a way that sounds like he’s rhyming. “Spontaneous combustion keeps the body thrusting, and you never know which way we're going to take this discussion. AI ain't going to just jump out like that. And even if it do, it's going to be from something that already exists. That's something that comes from the pre-existence of our consciousness.”

RZA became a legend in rap by being the maestro to one of the greatest hip-hop groups of all time. But at age 55, he’s taking the title of “orchestrator” literally, and he’s now telling his life story using bellowing horns and soothing flutes rather than rhymes. Over the summer, he released his first classical album, A Ballet Through Mud. The album—which comes with 11 tracks—is filled with lush instrumentation from the Colorado Symphony, who the RZA worked with in the studio.

“I will honestly say this took the most time of any album of my life, besides [producing Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)], which took our whole life,” RZA said. “But since success, this has been the longest that I've been on a project, and it's also been the only album since 36 Chambers that the motivation to do it was just to do it. I had no anticipation of the outcome. I just wanted to do it.”

RZA is an elder statesman of rap who’s been around long enough to witness historic rap battles, the genre explode in popularity, and its sound shift and bend to fit the changing times. With age also comes wisdom, and RZA has gained the foresight that helps him predict what might happen next in rap based on what’s happened before. So when it comes to the feud between Kendrick Lamar and Drake, he believes that they will be able to make peace with each other in due time,

“Yeah, it just takes time,” RZA said. “First of all, Kendrick is the natural lyricist, and Drake is a trained lyricist. You could train a fighter and he could be good, then you got those natural fighters who also then go through training. So that's a different chamber there. And while Drake got bars forever, Kendrick’s bars’ potency was stronger.”

We recently sat down with the RZA to talk about his classical album, rap beef, what the best years in rap history are, and more.

This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity

For a group as storied as Wu-Tang Clan, what’s something that still gives you goosebumps or butterflies when preparing for a show?
I don’t know if I get goosebumps or butterflies. I don't get nervous about it, but I definitely get the excitement of the joy. I'm at the joy phase of life. You know what I mean? So I just feel joy, even in the complexity of things. If I get there and there's a problem with the keyboard, or somebody did this, I enjoy solving the problem and getting the production done and going through it. I enjoy being on. 

What new things do y’all still learn about each other through these experiences?
Yeah, the new thing is that dealing with the Wu-Tang, everybody is evolving in their own space, and then they come together and show you that evolution. So you don't know which one of us that night got that hot hand and which one of us might be feeling a little soggy. So because it's such a strong crew of artists and MCs and talent, it always works because if I'm feeling bad, Method [Man] is holding it down. So it's always impressive to me to come together and see who has that energy.

How daunting of a task is to do something you’ve never done before when you’ve already done so much in your career?
Well, the strive to do something new to me should be the goal of an artist. And if you really check my history, you'll notice that I've continuously tried new things for two reasons. One, because I'm artistically schizophrenic. I'm not shy to say that, I just keep going and keep changing. But then two, I recognized early the hip-hop community—and the black community—we sometimes get crabs in the barrel. We all think we could try to do the same thing. So a guy is making a beat thinking he's going to be the next RZA or [DJ] Premier, not realizing that he could make a beat and be the next guy who did the Coca-Cola commercial, or be the guy who just had the radio announcer backdrop beat playing. There's so many avenues for us. So I made my personal journey to leave footprints. When you think about this new album, A Ballet Through Mud, it is pretty daunting.

This is recorded with a 60 piece orchestra, and then you have a conductor, co-orchestrators with me, music direction, the venue. It is a big endeavor, and it is a costly endeavor. A studio session in hip-hop—you go in there and you got your drum machine, the sampler, maybe you'll pay $2,000 for the top of the line. Recording the orchestra, it's like $20,000 an hour. So you better be tight, you better be sharp, and it's going to take some sessions. So the daunting aspect of it was not only the creativity, it was the technical part of it that I wouldn't have known if I wasn't a movie composer. I experienced it as a movie composer, so when I decided to do it for my own album, I knew what I was getting into. But it took a long time. I will honestly say this took the most time of any album of my life, besides [Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)], which took our whole life. But since success, this has been the longest that I've been on a project, and it's also been the only album since 36 chambers that the motivation to do it was just to do it. I had no anticipation of the outcome, the results. I just wanted to do it.

You said that you shared this album with André 3000 during the pandemic and he let you listen to his flute album early.

I wasn't finished with it. We both were at the beginning phases of [our albums]. His demo was rough, my demo was rough. We happened to be on the same flight together and we was talking, and André is a super unique artist and super unique spirit. Just love him. And if it wasn't for him, I probably wouldn't have shared—but we were talking and he was like, “Yeah, I’m kinda doing this thing” and I was like “Yeah, I’m kind of doing this thing.” And then it was great to see that he carried it through, and I'm also proud that I carried it through.

Achieving your goal is another point of reference that I strive for. Some people ask me, “What's the great thing you get out of it?” To me, completing the goal, that is my reward because I'm seeing something come from a thought to a physical manifestation.

I was in the Canary Islands for my birthday a few years ago and was driving up a desolate mountain range when I saw the Wu-Tang symbol graffitied on a wall. (Hands RZA a phone with the picture in it.) What did you think is the global impact of the group?

That's a blessing and it's a testament. The blessing is wow, it's flattering, it's great, it's joy there. The testament is that, no, we came to do something which we felt was important and positive, and our expression of the hip-hop culture, our art, we wanted to share it. We kind of kicked the door in. And when you think about those nine MCs, beside me and the producers in our stable and the family, we had an intention to be seen and heard. And then to see that intention come to a reality to where it's not just seen and heard here in New York City, which is always the first goal just to be heard on the radio. But to be around the world, it's a testament that there's something good about it. If it was bad, it wouldn't be there, so it's something good in the Wu, and that W, sometimes we say it stands for “wisdom.” And I think that wisdom that people put on one of our songs on, and they're going through something for themselves, and there's a word or a lyric or beat or vibe that they can relate to and they appreciate that and it inspires them. What you just showed me, it's so good to see and it's not the best drawing. I know, I know. But he remembered it. And I really appreciate that.

Who have been some up-and-coming artists that have been impressing you lately?

Well, I don’t know. But I can speak as a hip-hop statesman here, I love that the women are getting their voice. There's so many, and I just will hope that they don't abuse it like we did, because men abused it because we could. And we just took it and we forgot about the substance and we just kept going. That's part of growing up and all that, but at least in my generation and the generation before me, you could have KRS-One telling you this and A Tribe Called Quest telling you this and MC Lyte telling you this, it was so many substances and point of views, versus it becoming very tunnel vision and narrow-minded, which I think we are now even though the music is great. Now that the women are having the strongest voices out there and it's ripping it talent wise, flow wise, lyric wise, I just hope that they don't forget the substance and start turning [into] us. Don't turn into us. Don't forget the beauty of a woman that's different than the beauty of a man. Don't forget the wisdom of a woman that’s different from the wisdom of a man and that experience a now that you have a platform to give us the experience.

How do you think the genre can balance new innovations with the preservation of its heritage and roots?

I think sonically they're doing it. Pete Rock right now got an album out with Common. Nas and Hit Boy, Kendrick [Lamar] and [DJ] Mustard. The sound is there. Glorilla, and even in the R&B and Afro[beats] sonically, we killing it. And the country is blending in. Like I said, it is just substance I think we got to be conscious of, and that's my opinion. I think hip-hop has grown so well that there's not a form of music that doesn't have hip-hop in it. Before hip-hop was taking from other music. Now there's not a form of music on the planet that doesn't have hip-hop inspiration. Even Taylor Swift has picked up hip-hop into her joint. So I think we did well and we continue to do well. And even if the AI come and generate, I'm sure that somebody's going to find a way to take a generic generation and transform it to an innovation. That's what hip-hop does.

Are you concerned about AI at all?
Not at the moment. It doesn't concern me because of the spontaneous combustion of the mind. Spontaneous combustion keeps the body thrusting and you never know which way we're going to take this discussion. AI ain't going to just jump out like that. And even if it do, it's going to be from something that already exists. That's something that comes from the pre-existence of our consciousness. Yeah, they ain't going to do it.

What do you think is the greatest year in hip-hop history?
I think ‘86 and ‘87 was very powerful for hip-hop. What was coming in at that period of time was incredible, and maybe it even lasted up to ‘88, then it dampens. And then I think from ‘93 to ‘95 it goes again. And I'm saying that because if you go back to those times in those years, you'll find hundreds of variations. When you get to a certain year, the variations are getting less and less. Then when you get to now, the variations are almost down to a dozen patterns. It's a dozen templates, and to me, hip-hop is the strongest when it's unpredictable, when there's hundreds of variations. So for me, I would look in those two windows of time to find the best year. 

You’ve shown admiration for both Kendrick Lamar and Drake in the past. Do you think those two will ever reconcile after the way their rap war has gone?

Yeah, it just takes time. First of all, Kendrick is the natural lyricist, and Drake is a trained lyricist. You could train a fighter and he could be good, then you got those natural fighters who also then go through training. So that's a different chamber there. And while Drake got bars forever, Kendrick’s bars’ potency was stronger.

So the battle bar-for-bar was something that was just not good advising on Drake's camp in the sense of just getting in that fight without really taking some more training for that. When Kendrick wrote the letter to his son or his daughter and to his [mother], Kendrick is going to come like that. Nas, Kendrick, Eminem, Raekwon, certain people are going to break your shit down to the element. But in doing so, I do think that a lot was said, and Drake is a powerful artist in our culture. He helped the culture when the culture needed it. He expanded it with his melodies and he raised a generation too, and you can't take that away from him. And these two were at the top of the pinnacle at the end of the day. And you said Nas and Jay-Z, that's another good example, but it was tough. It took years for them to swallow that pill and then come and shake hands on it. So hopefully it is not the same. Hopefully this generation can take it as fun like how the beginning generation took it more for fun.

When you think about Busy Bee and Kool Moe D, they’d battle, lose, and battle again next year. And then smoke a joint with each other. It got to a level with [2Pac] and Biggie where it became no reconciliation. And then when it got to Jay and Nas, it was tough. And we had a few other tough ones like that. I think [now] they can reconcile because the thing that these young brothers should recognize, and I can speak on this here in the physical form, is that as you get older, you gain more knowledge and wisdom and experience and you'd be more heedful. Even [ Martin Luther King Jr.] had a meeting with Malcolm X later in life.

In the early days, that wasn't happening. So hopefully as they mature more as humans, they would go, “Wow, that shit was crazy. That shit was fun. I ate you up, son. You know what I mean? But yo, I love that other joint. My son love your joint. My son love your joint.” That's just what it is. And here we are for the culture coming together. It took MC Shan and KRS-One decades.