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“A Complete Unknown” is a departure for Edward Norton, even though he’s quick to point out he’s played kind-hearted souls before — including, surprisingly, referencing Smoochy the Rhino from “Death to Smoochy,” an early, unexpected, comedic zag in this interview from Norton while discussing his buzzed-about performance as folk legend Pete Seeger.
And he’s right. He has played, as he puts it, “decent people” — he’s most definitely not always in that wiseacre vibe of Worm in “Rounders” or flirting with the emotional rage and misery of Monty in Spike Lee’s “25th Hour.” But his interpretation of Pete Seeger is unique in that he plays him with this true north earnestness … but with an undercut of passive aggressiveness that comes biting through when Timotheé Chalamet’s Bob Dylan does something Pete doesn’t see eye to eye with. This happens quite often during the events of “A Complete Unknown.” (Things like, you know, playing an electric guitar at a folk festival. Pete Seeger did not like that.)
In “A Complete Unknown,” director James Mangold drops us into the New York City folk scene of the early ’60s, following the rise of Bob Dylan, but also of other artists that shaped the culture, like Joan Baez (Monica Barbaro) and, of course, Pete Seeger. This all culminates at the Newport Folk Festival, where Dylan — famously or infamously, depending on your perspective — decided he wanted to eschew folk music for a more rock sound, which both delighted and offended his fans, again, depending on your perspective.
For his part, it’s pretty evident Norton loved working with Mangold and compares him, often, to the late Miloš Forman, whom Norton worked with on 1996’s “The People vs. Larry Flynt.” Norton was also full of praise for his costar Chalamet as Bob Dylan (calling Chalamet “a subset of one”), which is notable because, over the course of his career, Norton hasn’t exactly been timid when speaking his mind. If doesn’t truly believe something, he’s certainly not going to say it.
Norton hopes this will not just spark more interest in Dylan, but also Seeger, who Norton feels is fading from the same cultural zeitgeist he was once such a huge force within. I argued that people do know Pete Seeger’s music, they just don’t realize it — he’s written numerous very famous songs made hits by other musical artists. But Norton quickly counters with a story about his friend, director Spike Jonze, who assumed Norton was playing Bob Seger.
The following interview has been edited and condensed for length and clarity.
IndieWire: I’ve never watched you play a character quite like this before. But I have no idea if you agree with that.
Edward Norton: I don’t know, I think Smoochy the Rhino and Pete Seeger have quite a number of things in common as guitar players and mission-driven lefties. I’m not saying this in a good way, I never relate any role to any other role. I don’t feel connectivity between almost anything. I get it, you do certain things that are in a certain gear like “American History X” or “25th Hour” or something, but to me, “The Painted Veil” or “Keeping the Faith” or playing Alan Isaacman in “Larry Flynt,” who’s very much the foil.
But I’ve certainly had my time in what I would call “decent people.” Or people who are in the thoughtful side of the equation. But, to me, there’s nobody like Pete Seeger. Nobody.
‘A Complete Unknown’©Searchlight Pictures/Courtesy Everett CollectionHow so?
Timothée and I had a deeply shared, let’s call it, concern about the whole enterprise. The deeper your respect is for Dylan and Seeger and Joan Baez, in a way it almost starts to throw off this impossible standard of, why are we doing this? And I think James Mangold was the strength we all needed in the sense that his capacity to articulate the “why” of the whole thing and to assure everybody this isn’t about doing a color-by-numbers biopic about any of these people. It’s about looking at the messy collisions and paradoxes and multidimensional relationships that produced this wild, emergent cultural moment.
And Jim [Mangold] was comparing it to “Amadeus.” He was comparing it to “Hair.” He was comparing it to things that were so different from what I’d call biographical touchpoints that it started to get really interesting for everybody. And I think it liberated Timothée. It liberated me. Timothée and I talked about the fact that both of us were realizing that we were in the rabbit hole of aficionado research, but most of the people we know aren’t that immersed in Dylan’s music anymore. And certainly not Pete Seeger’s. You realize maybe it’s an opportunity to put a light on this period and how amazing these artists were and get reconnected to them.
I could argue people are immersed in Pete Seeger’s music but they just don’t know it.
Yes. But I’d say you’re in the narrow club of real cultural erudition.
But everyone knows The Byrds’ version of “Turn! Turn! Turn!” It’s in “Forest Gump,” which is on cable three times a day.
I’m going to give you a funny example. Spike Jonze is a really good friend of mine, and I told him what I was doing, and he was like, “Wow, are you doing the music yourself?” I said yes. And he goes, “Are you doing ‘Night Moves’ and ‘Against the Wind’ and ‘Old Time Rock & Roll’?”
Oh, no. He thought you were playing Bob Seger.
Yeah, I’m like, “Pete Seeger, not Bob Seger!” And he was like, “Wait, who is Pete Seeger?” And I’m like, “Pete Seeger, the folk singer! Not Bob Seger,” and we were laughing and everything. I talked to Stephen Colbert. I did his show. He came up to me and said, “There was a moment where I just started weeping because I so love and revere Pete Seeger.” If you can see the portrait of people who are aspiring to do something with their lives in different ways, you realize they all set a standard of artistic aspiration that I kind of think we are getting a little more distant from right now. We are dangerously close to the whole idea of artistic endeavor being consumed within the idea of content as collateral. And the itemizing of it, breaking it up, short form, the clipping it out.
Looking at what Jim has actually made, as a total piece, one of the things I was moved by was the movement of an era … all of it was aimed at trying to say stuff. It was aimed at trying to pull a lever on the culture one way or another. And they did. For a period, they did. It’s ironic, I don’t think superheroes in capes are actually going to arrive and save us. They chose to take that energy and lever it into the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement. And they raised the banner of their generation and got people rallying around ideas. And it is pretty heroic.
That type of protest music seems gone right now.
Yeah, you know, I think David Bowie was right back in the late ‘80s, observing that some of the most culturally interesting music was hip-hop. When you had “The Message” and Public Enemy’s “Fight the Power,” there was a period. We’ve had waves. It’s not like the early ‘60s was the last time that you’ve seen political and culturally engaged commentary through music at all. But I do think right now it’s a fair question. Where is that?
‘A Complete Unknown’©Searchlight Pictures/Courtesy Everett CollectionWhen you mentioned Spike Jonze confusing Bob Seger and Pete Seeger, remember in 2006 when Springsteen did the “Seeger Sessions” tour? That same thing happened. A lot of people were asking why Bruce Springsteen was celebrating the music of Bob Seger.
Oh, yeah, I went to the first show. I drove down to Asbury Park from New York to see opening night of the “Seeger Sessions” tour in one of the old Asbury beachside auditoriums.
Oh yeah, Convention Hall.
Yeah, that’s where he did it. I still have pictures. And Bruce, to me, he’s 100 percent, no question whatsoever, the Pete Seeger of our generation and our time. He’s the guy who really actually took up the mantle. Not just obviously singing songs about working people, singing about the emotional and economic plight of working people and their struggles. But he also took up the flag of political engagement. Way more than Dylan. And I’d argue more than anyone, since Pete Seeger, Bruce Springsteen has been the troubadour of the working man and also an unapologetic deployer of music toward political progressive humanism. He’s a force. And it’s no surprise to me whatsoever he did a Seeger record like that because Bruce has long been one of the deacons in the Pete Seeger church.
Woody Guthrie writes “This Land Is Your Land,” which was the “Born in the USA” of its time. A seemingly patriotic song with a subversive message underneath, right?
It was written as a response to “God Bless America.”
Totally. And cut to 2009, where Pete Seeger and John Lewis are really the only two people deeply involved in the civil rights movement almost from the get-go who are still alive to witness and attend Barack Obama’s inauguration.
I just watched the clip of Seeger and Springsteen playing “This Land Is Your Land” at the inauguration.
He plays his friend’s song with Bruce Springsteen at the inauguration of Obama! At age 90. It’s absolutely unbelievable, and moving to me, that his life spread that kind of music as an instrument of change and he actually survived to see that moment. It was freezing that day, remember?
Yeah, it’s obvious watching the clip again.
Bruce told me he kept trying to get Pete to put on more warm clothes. Because if you see that, he’s just wearing his flannel shirt. I’m not sure I should be quoted on this, but I think Bruce told me he said something like, “You’ve got to put a coat on, Pete.” And Pete said, “Nothing can make me cold today, Bruce. I’m lit up from the inside.”
It’s interesting we are discussing a film about Bob Dylan, and when “Greetings from Asbury Park” came out, Springsteen was being called “the next Dylan.” But as you said, he more embodies Pete Seeger.
Much more so. But maybe a blend of both, in some sense. “Greetings” has “For You”…
“Mary Queen of Arkansas.”
There’s the reverence for Dylan’s lyricism for sure.
“Growing Up” is also maybe a good example of that.
Yeah, I think in the total measure of Bruce, as an artist, his ethos is very connected to Seeger’s.
They’re making a movie about Bruce. I realize it’s about “Nebraska,” but you could also pop up in that as Pete Seeger.
[Laughs] I’m not sure how much “Nebraska” Bruce was interacting with Pete.
Look, I’ve been giving performances and acting with other people for 30 years professionally, and longer before. I’d put the zone Timothée was in on this right up there in the upper ranks of what I’ve been around. He’s in such a deeply connected, serious, immersive state. Having him be there, radiated outward to a commitment by everybody to stay deeply invested in a sustained illusion and a commitment to the illusion while we were doing it. I’m not sure how many people could or should even attempt to play Dylan.
In my own view, he’s close to a subset of one in terms of who could or should have done this at this particular point. I can’t think of anybody else who would have pulled this off, and I think he pulled it off. It’s a very daring thing to say you’re going to represent Bob Dylan. I know Timothée, and I don’t see him in there. Things he’s going through — you know, the way forces come at you when you start to get well-known for something — is well-aligned with his own experiences right now, but I think he got about as lost in that part as you can ever aspire to be as an actor and it was really, really cool.
Timothée Chalamet, Shauna Robertson, and Edward Norton attend the Los Angeles premiere of ‘A Complete Unknown’ at Dolby TheatreGetty Images for Searchlight PicThat’s high praise from you. I don’t know you, but I know your personality enough that you wouldn’t say that if you didn’t mean it.
I have a lot of friends in music and everyone I know who has seen it — and I know quite a few people who know Dylan who were skeptical, telling me they were disinclined to see it because they didn’t think they’d be able to let go and immerse — ended up walking out in tears.
There’s a famous moment in the film involving Pete Seeger allegedly wanting to take an ax to the power supply when Dylan played electric at the Newport Folk Festival. I’ve read so many accounts that are all different enough this could be a “Rashomon” style moment.
I’d say, to counter that, I think the urban myth of it all came out of casual comments people made — and Dylan says it in Scorsese’s doc, “Someone told me Pete Seeger tried to get an ax and that disturbed me greatly because I respected him so much.” I actually don’t think there is that much “Rashomon,” I think it’s pretty clear. A number of people have said, the reason the ax thing is probably in people’s head is the work group with its logs and its axes were sitting offstage. Some people think he might have yelled, “Goddammit, if I had an ax I’d cut the cord!,” but there’s not one single person who was there who has a shred of doubt about that never happened. He never grabbed an ax.
But, at the same time, even his daughter said to me, it’s uncontestable he blew a gasket, and he got angry in a way she’s never seen him get angry before or since. He absolutely went at the board and tried to get them to take it down. [What’s in the film] is very aligned with what people there shared with us and it feels emotionally true to me. It’s really interesting, I realized Jim and I were both mentees of Miloš Forman. Miloš was his professor at Columbia and Miloš was the closest to a mentor I had from the “Larry Flynt” period and ever after.
And you mentioned “Amadeus” earlier.
Yeah! It’s really funny, I’ve worked for a lot of great directors and stuff, the way Jim approaches making a film and the amount of room he gives actors — even as the writer of the script –—he really does say, “Go out there and mine for gold. Bring me so much more Pete Seeger than I could ever use and throw it all in there for me and trust me to sort out the nuggets you find me.” When someone is assured as he is, but also genuinely passionate about discovery? I think movies like this are really deceptively hard. In a lot of ways, I think Miloš Forman was really appreciated all the way from “Fireman’s Ball,” and not just through “Cuckoo’s Nest,” but “Hair” and “Ragtime” and “Larry Flynt.” Miloš was the king of the movie that was cultural anthropology.
Timothée Chalamet, Edward Norton, Elle Fanning, Monica Barbaro, James Mangold, Boyd Holbrook, Eriko Hatsune, Scoot McNairy, and Will Harrison speak onstage during the Los Angeles premiere of ‘A Complete Unknown’Getty Images for Searchlight Pic“Man on the Moon” is another example.
Yeah! Yes. He was so good at these films. And I hadn’t had an experience kind of since then… I was very young, but I remember on “Larry Flynt” going, ‘The way this guy works, he is so different from any way I thought about how you make film.’ Miloš was this guy, he used to say to me, “It’s all casting and editing and, in-between, you’re just gathering clay. It’s all just raw material. I’m great at casting and I’m great at sculpting.”
I really feel Jim Mangold. He also has Miloš’ lack of pretention about authorship. I think we are really in this era where we lionize the auteur, and Jim has this beautifully unpretentious view of what directing is about. He’s very much like Miloš in that sense. It’s very different from the limited version of authorship that I think we’ve developed around making movies. I found it so refreshing. I really do think these kind of plotless films that you have the confidence to say I’m going to drop you through a cultural moment and immerse you in it, it’s kind of ballsy. It’s ballsy to assert you can hold people and I feel Jim has grown into being that kind of Miloš Forman director.
It’s interesting you mention the casting and the sculpting. I just rewatched “Copland,” and James Mangold does a great job doing that and getting these great performances — obviously, that’s early in his career.
Yeah! And it’s not like Jim isn’t one of the most successful directors in Hollywood, but the way he’s brilliant, it’s not the hyper-controlled, OCD, micro-managerial definition of auteurship that we’ve kind of got. I think he comes out of this school that I call the Miloš Forman school. For me, that’s why I’m a devote of Miloš’ films from “Fireman’s Ball” on. You look at it and say, how is this working so well? What is going on here? How is he able to set up very non-expositional scenarios and you’re so delighted by them? It’s a kind of alchemy that’s, not harder, everything is its own thing, but I feel like, in this one, he really hit a new high bar. I’d put this film in there with those Miloš films.
Searchlight Pictures will release “A Complete Unknown” in theaters on Wednesday, December 25.
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