"This is, in essence, a gender apartheid, and that's exactly what Afghan women activists and other human rights experts are calling it."
"Afghanistan is the only country in the world where girls are banned from access to education and women are limited from work." That is the stark reality that motivated Malala Yousafzai to lend her name as a producer to the documentary Bread & Roses (Apple TV+). Directed by Sahra Mani and co-produced by Jennifer Lawrence, the film follows three Afghan women (filmed in secret) as they live under and resist the Taliban oppression. "While the Taliban are trying to silence women, amplifying their voices through this documentary, is a form of resistance." For Mani, the message of this film is of vital global importance. "We need solidarity of the world right now, tomorrow might be [too] late." For Yousafzai, a Nobel Peace Prize recipient who rose to prominence after surviving a failed Taliban assassination attempt at age 12, this is an issue that is rooted in the inalienable right to dignity and personal freedom. "We'll keep fighting till the day we see every Afghan girl going to her school again, and every Afghan woman getting their equal rights, living in dignity."
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Editor's Note: This conversation has been edited and condensed for publication.
Malala, why is this film and the message of this film so important right now?
Malala Yousafzai: Since the Taliban took control, the situation of women and girls in Afghanistan has only worsened. In the past three-and-a-half years, we have seen how the Taliban have not changed at all. They are even more oppressive, where they are using everything in their power to limit women from work, education, any form of political participation or presence in public life. And Afghanistan is the only country in the world where girls are banned from access to education and women are limited from work. This is, in essence, a gender apartheid, and that's exactly what Afghan women activists and other human rights experts are calling it, because the Taliban are systematically oppressing women, erasing them from public life there. This time is so critical, because even recently, the Taliban issued more decrees, announcing more limitations on women's voices and dress code and limiting them from leaving their house, even if they are the sole bread winner and they need a doctor, they need any other thing. The Taliban have very little flexibility, and their only goal is to oppress women and just limit them to the four walls of their houses. So, this documentary is very crucial to bring attention to the reality that Afghan women are living under, but also the activism that Afghan women are leading against the Taliban.
Sahra, I want to ask you the same question, but also as the filmmaker, how difficult is it to put a film like this together?
Sahra Mani: Filmmaking is something that I love to do, and I never think about the challenge, but I just want to do it in any way. But the challenge for all of us was emotional, because we were dealing with the deep human story of loss, resilience and hope, and we have to put their security always in our priority, and, of course, our team. And then while we don't have much access in Afghanistan, and while we were facing one of the most dangerous terrorists in the world, all of them were challenging. But making this film itself, the story, the material I received, they were super powerful. Of course, some of them were shooting by their own cell phone, so maybe some of them doesn't have the quality I required, but I don't care. I said, "I'm gonna tell this story even with the low-quality video." But we should be able to be there and capture the moment, especially intimate moments with this woman activist.
And why do you think this film is so needed right now?
Mani: If Jennifer didn't ask me to do it, we [wouldn't] have this film right now. And if I want to make this film right now, it is impossible to do it, because the situation—as Malala just mentioned—it's getting more difficult and more decrees [imposed] against women in Afghanistan. So, what we have, that's over. The situation is getting much [more] difficult that even women are not allowed to sing behind the door for another woman. They are just making life impossible for women.
Malala, why was it important for you and Jennifer Lawrence to lend your names to this project? And also, how do you think the arts and films help spread the message about this film?
Yousafzai: I remember when we were facing terrorism by the Taliban in my hometown, in Swat Valley, a headline was not telling a whole story about what exactly was happening to women and girls on the ground. And this is a similar situation for women and girls in Afghanistan right now, where they might have appeared once or twice in a headline or there's some coverage on the country, but there's very, very little discussion about how the situation for women is worsening. That's why making a documentary is so critical, because we want to capture that, to show people what the Taliban are actually imposing on women, and what it is like to be an Afghan woman right now, living under such an oppressive regime, and really highlighting the resilience and the resistance of these Afghan women against the Taliban. A lot of these women had worked so hard for their education and right to work and jobs that they cannot picture a life of being stuck at home. They had only heard stories from their mothers and their elder women about the previous regime of the Taliban back in the late '90s. They had no idea that they, who worked for 20 years for all of this, would be living under the same oppressive regime once again, and they cannot see a future under the Taliban, and that's why they're resisting them. They're doing demonstrations, they are holding slogans, and they are calling [on] the Taliban just for giving them their basic human rights. And the Taliban are just so scared of these Afghan women that they do not even want to see women on the street doing demonstrations. They are doing these sprays on them. They are beating them up. They are trying to put them in prisons so that they can scare these women from speaking out. They want to silence women. And I believe that while the Taliban are trying to silence women, amplifying their voices through this documentary, is a form of resistance. While the Taliban are trying to make women invisible, bringing visibility to women of Afghanistan through this documentary, again, is a form of resistance.
Sahra, having names like Malala's and Jennifer's is certainly going to get a lot more eyes on this film. How do you think art can be a form of activism or a political statement?
Mani: It's great that having this important name on this film that supposed to [be] advocacy for Afghan women. And I believe in the power of cinema and the tool of storytelling to bring change to society, and more important, to the world and to the future of the world. When Afghanistan [was] handed to Taliban three-years-and-a-half ago, we were witnessing how Taliban proved that they are the same Taliban, but we keep [being] denied. And then there [was] a huge silence against everything happening to Afghan women. I think some people [are] thinking that what's happening to Afghan women is a cultural or local issue, and it's not touched the rest of the world. But the thing is, we shouldn't trust terrorists, and we shouldn't hand a part of our world to the terrorists, because Afghan women [are] paying the high price today, the world might pay the price tomorrow, and we have to think about the future of our children and the future of our world right now. And this documentary could [be] used as a tool for advocacy.
Malala, what do you hope people will take from this film?
Yousafzai: I think talking about this documentary, sharing it and talking about Afghan women is so, so important. There are so many Afghan womenn-led organizations working in the country and outside the country, leading different campaigns. They're providing alternative education. They're pushing leaders to do more. Supporting their work is also very critical. And then after that, I would mention that we need to push our leaders to do more. Ask them not to normalize relations with the Taliban. They must include Afghan women in the rooms where they're holding talks with the Taliban and are making decisions about Afghanistan's future. And women's rights and girls' education have to be a nonnegotiable condition in those rooms. And then finally, pushing our leaders to fortify gender apartheid as a crime against humanity. That treaty is in conversations, and we can ask our leaders to take this bold step so that we can bring a system of accountability in the international law, that the oppression of such scale that the Taliban are imposing can be recognized and can be held up, and those who are committing it can be held accountable for that. I don't think there's any other definition right now that can actually fully describe how horrible and systematic the oppression is that the Afghan women are facing. So I think gender apartheid, that is a campaign led by Afghan women and other human rights activists is so critical, and people can lend their support to that as well, and just take the lead of Afghan women. Take their lead. Support them. Share their stories and talk more about them. The Taliban want us to look away. They want this issue to die down, and within 24 hours, we should not let that happen. We all remain committed to it, and we'll keep fighting till the day we see every Afghan girl going to her school again, and every Afghan woman getting their equal rights, living in dignity.
And Sahra, I want to ask you the same question. What do you hope people take from your film?
Mani: I don't have much to add to Malala because she said everything. We need to be considered for the future of these women. But I think we need solidarity of the world right now, tomorrow might be [too] late. So it's three-years-and-a-half that the girls are not able to go back to school, and the situation is getting so bad, like we had so many cases of suicide in young girls in Afghanistan, and it's not [found] its way to the media. So, we know how depressing the situation is. I think they deserve to have their rights, and they do their best to get it, but it seems it's impossible without the support of international [communities]. We have to do something right now and stand up for them.
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